tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13589532.post1950210866694905518..comments2023-10-09T04:11:47.358-07:00Comments on Not A Potted Plant: Indelicate Manipulation Of Social PressureBurt Likkohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16060980744675990412noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13589532.post-27762697594307172512009-04-21T16:09:00.000-07:002009-04-21T16:09:00.000-07:00Well, it's true that I believe most of the opposit...Well, it's true that I believe most of the opposition to same-sex marriage finds its foundation in the religious beliefs of the opponents. There seem to be relatively few secular SSM opponents. So opinions <B><I>on this issue</I></B> will not change until the imperative of following the dictates of these religions diminishes in importance to the other values I described in that sentence. As I feared after your first comment, I expressed myself poorly in that sentence.<br /><br />I must remember the rule -- coffee first, writing later.Burt Likkohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16060980744675990412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13589532.post-90193910974660502972009-04-21T14:36:00.000-07:002009-04-21T14:36:00.000-07:00I wasn't very clear on precisely what I was referr...I wasn't very clear on precisely what I was referring to.<br /><br />I did catch (and agree with!) your point about the hamfisted manner in which Hilton operated. Where I got confused in the first sentence of the last paragraph. I read it as you saying that the problem is with the religiousness from which her views were (presumably) derived. I take the view that the issue is that her religion (again, assuming that's the basis) is wrong. Then again, on this specific issue, maybe that's the only terrain that we can win. We're certainly not going to change the religion itself. Maybe a better tactic would be to try to argue why, in this case, the law needs to view marriage as a civic rather than moral institution.trumwillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03156143676616919381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13589532.post-51259181055050742182009-04-21T13:17:00.000-07:002009-04-21T13:17:00.000-07:00"She lost it because of that question. She was def...<I>"She lost it because of that question. She was definitely the front-runner before that," Hilton said, adding that he's "very happy with whom the judges chose," Miss North Carolina's Kristen Dalton.</I>--The person who runs the Miss California competition said the same thing.zzihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933063994246150989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13589532.post-14084133764742034182009-04-21T12:35:00.000-07:002009-04-21T12:35:00.000-07:00Clearly, I've stated myself poorly here. I am not ...Clearly, I've stated myself poorly here. I am not taking aim at the basis for person A's beliefs at all. Rather, I'm looking at the efforts of person B to influence A's beliefs. Here, I'm assuming that Perez Hilton used his influence to reward a favored viewpoint and to punish a disfavored one. My suggestion is that doing so approaches and sometimes crosses a line into behavior that can generate backlash and retrograde consequences.<br /><br />My last paragraph is aimed at the idea that pressure of this kind, whether applied correctly or ham-fistedly, is ultimately ineffective anyway, because a real change of opinion needs to come from within oneself. The kinds of changes in opinion I mentioned were examples of this, specific to the issue of same-sex marriage and religious-based opposition to it.Burt Likkohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16060980744675990412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13589532.post-71104990713309614132009-04-21T12:28:00.000-07:002009-04-21T12:28:00.000-07:00You seem to be hinting at something, although I'm ...You seem to be hinting at something, although I'm not sure you've ever said it. Is it your opinion that holding a political position as a product of religious belief is less valid than holding it for some other reason? In other words, if somebody opposes the death penalty because "though shalt not kill" instead of some other philosophical or practical issue, should they not vote accordingly?<br /><br />Or is it only an issue regarding the protection of the civil rights from the government. One of the most pro-life people I know doesn't believe in God. Does he have more standing to press the issue than does someone that believes it's wrong because his reading of the Bible says so?<br /><br />Granted, I think that people whose views are based on purely (or mostly) religious grounds are substantially less convincing. But I don't think that my opposing the death penalty on quasi-religious grounds is a less valid reason than the other, more procedural ones (cost, wrongful convictions, etc).trumwillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03156143676616919381noreply@blogger.com